Dialogues with Master Kim

(1) Dialogue 1

(A dialogue with a man who has just made the great resolution to attain enlightenment on March 3rd in 2003)

Q: Would you tell me about what attitude of mind the novice practitioner should have? 

A: The attitude of mind is not different, whether he is novice practitioner or not. It is the most important for Seon practice how thirsty the practitioner is. For example, it is like the mind of an infant crying for mother’s milk. The infant is not crying for milk while thinking that he is hungry. Just because he is hungry, he cries. Like this, for the desperate mind, Seon practice is so important even we cannot possibly put down the intention or consciousness that we should do something else.

   Not speculating about how good Seon practice is, and not starting practicing for a certain benefit, he is just hungry for the practice. Even if he cannot put his fingers on whether it is for practice or truth, he is just hungry for it. This way, if he is desperately hungry for the truth, he will get the result of practice very quickly in response to the desperate hunger.

   It is a matter of common sense. There is no theory. It is just a common sense principle in life. It is not a systematic process according to a specific theory. It does not work that way. Everybody knows it instinctively and Seon practice works in a natural way. Actually, the attitude of mind is very important for a practitioner. No! It is not just a matter of importance but everything. Depending upon the attitude of mind, the practice can be completed within a very short period, one can in six days, or even in three days. Within a very short period, it can be possible to finish. Actually it is true. However, if one has a wrong attitude of mind, he can barely complete it even though he practices it for many years. His practice is all superficial. It is always the same as ever. Those who don’t know that they have wrong attitudes of mind themselves, always wander about to seek for various methods or to visit diverse people for advice, thinking that there might be some way to attain it.

   However, it does not work because this is discriminatory thinking. As I said before, it is such an innocent and desperate feeling as a hungry baby’s crying for milk that makes practitioners complete their practice. Like an infant who has a desperate hunger, one who has a desperate hunger for awakening and doesn’t discriminate, can complete his practice.

   The response of the original true Self has nothing special. Originally we already have the original true Self in ourselves. Then, why does the original true Self not appear? It doesn’t appear because of our calculation, or conscious discrimination.

   In the first question, you have asked what attitude of mind Seon practitioners should have. It is a very important question. I can say that it is not only a starting point of the practice, but also everything of the practice. It is useless to think about how to practice. It means that any method doesn’t matter whether you pray, or bow or do “hwadu” practice, which is keyword meditation. Whatever you do, it doesn’t matter. In my point of view, it is best to do nothing at all, not to take any measure. If one gets obsessed with a method because of the temporary and manipulative effects which the method offers, he may mistake the method for the practice. So, it is better to do practice without any method.

   If one does sincerely have a thirst for one’s own true Self, it will naturally be exposed to him, not by a specific method or lengthy practice but by the desperate mind itself. This is just a revelation of the true Self here at this very moment. There is no rind to crush, or no Kelsa (defilement) or Karma to discard. The revelation of one’s own true Self cannot be attained by a specific method or lengthy ascetic practice, but it comes to light as it is, without any condition. What one only needs is a great resolve that is sincere, genuine, unaffected and desperate in order to get awakened, not intentional and conscious discrimination. Thirst and hunger for awakening can make one complete his practice—suddenly. Desperate mind is not only the starting point but also the finish line.

   There is no difference between a novice Seon practitioner and Seon expert who practices for over ten years if neither one knows his true Self. There are only two categories, those who taste it or not. Even for the experienced practitioner, he has not a special knack. Whether one has practiced for more than 10 years or he has just started the practice, a sincere thirst for awakening is all that matters. With a desperate thirst for awakening, he will complete his practice before long.

   Most people usually think this way, “I have desperately practiced and I am well prepared with a resolution for awakening. I think I am really thirsty and hungry for it.” Then, they ask, “So, why can’t I get awakened? Is there anything wrong with the way I have practiced?” But, from my point of view, they are not yet thirsty because they are still looking for tips. Those who are really thirsty cannot afford to look for tips or any other methods. Driven by thirst, they are likely to go blind and reckless.

   Such hunger as Jean Valjean who broke the window of the shelves and stole a loaf of bread! If one thinks that he will be punished if he steals a loaf of bread, he is not yet hungry. If he is desperately hungry, he cannot afford to expect what the result will be. When he is just desperately hungry, he is about to die of hunger. While he is wondering about what and how he does, he is not yet much hungry. He doesn’t know what real hunger is when he is weighing which method is better. Desperate hunger makes him reckless. So a practitioner should be that desperate.

Q: I have spent my youth looking for the correct path which I have always yearned for. Now I have fortunately met with you, Professor, when I am nearly sixty. However, now I feel nervous, thinking that I am too late for practice. Even though Buddhist monks are spending most of their life in temple, not a few doze away their time. Would you tell me whether I can make it in terms of practice achievement as much as I want even though I can only start from now? 

A: You feel nervous since you don’t meet with your true Self, although you have spent much time trying, and now you are very hungry, as much hunger is allowed. As your hunger for your true Self is not yet gratified, I feel sorry for you.

   You may feel nervous, wondering whether you are late. But in the proverb, it is the fastest time when one thinks that one is late. I understand that you are wondering whether you can make it or not, but I feel that you are not hungry enough since you are wondering whether you can achieve it as much as you want. Anyway, there is a saying, “you will find the death different when you experience awakening even before death. Regardless of age, one who has a desperate thirst for the true self will eventually experience it. And, it is afterward a matter of how deeply he gets involved in the true Self after he tastes it. Above all, tasting the fruits of the practice is urgent. If you feel desperate for awakening as you are already old, and if you stick to practice desperately as the one who is desperate for water digs a well even with bare hands, you will taste the result of the practice in no time. After tasting the true Self, you may practice depending upon the circumstance. But, first of all, if you practice constantly with desperation, determined that you will taste the fruit of the practice before your death, you are sure to get a good result.

Q: While I have read diverse books and listened to dharma talks, I understand somewhat that the mind is Buddha, in theory or in dogma. However, I can’t grasp the mind, so there comes nothing special to my mind. Would you tell me about how I can taste the true Self and how I should start basic practice? 

A: Actually, since we all live with our mind, there is no one that does not taste his mind. Even though we always taste our mind, we don’t recognize its taste. It is like when we eat a meal. When we are genuinely absorbed in the meal which we eat, we are able to enjoy every taste of the meal. But, when we are distracted from the meal, we can’t enjoy the taste of the meal. We can’t taste, not because we don’t eat the meal, but because we are distracted. Like this, we can’t taste our mind, not because we don’t have the mind, but because we are distracted from the mind. Therefore, it is not because we don’t have the true Self, but because we don’t recognize that we have the true Self that we need to correctly taste the mind, which is what we call Seon practice.

   Therefore, just as we don’t need to put a new meal into our mouth, it is not practice if we build something new in our mind. It is our delusion that our attention always heads for another object other than the mind that we already have. It is practice that turns our attention to the mind we are using. What I am doing now right here and what I am paying attention to right now is none other than what is always clear and obvious to me at this very moment. And it has nothing to do with changes of the sphere. The sphere, which is impermanent and transient, is always changing, coming and going. But the mind, the true self, itself is always staying permanent in the middle of the infinitely variable changing sphere.

   Therefore, we are not tasting the sphere. We mistake it as if we tasted the sphere. We think that we taste and pay attention to every sphere through the eyes, senses, or our consciousness. It is much like the fact we pay attention to every other object but the mind, which we have even as we are using it. Actually, it is not case and even if our mind is wandering about along the outer sphere, it is always with us, vivid in front of our eyes. You could say that it is the mind that we always taste. It is always vivid, lively and undeniable! It is not coming and going, like form.

   Man’s current situation is like watching a movie. The picture in the screen is always changing, but even if the picture gets darker or brighter, there is always light. The degree of brightness is different depending upon the scene, but there is the unchanging fact! It is the light that makes the scene appear! However, if you stop there, thinking consciously, “Yes, this is it.” you are still standing outside the door of awakening. You have not yet entered inside. You should not stay intentionally or consciously. Even if the pictures in the screen of your mind change constantly, there is one thing that doesn’t follow the pictures and watches an invariable screen. While listening to this kind of talk, if you suddenly got caught with a strange feeling, it would be a gateway into the one sphere called the original true self. When a thumping slap on your mind passes by, suddenly all thinking almost dies down. Without this or that view, you just feel vivid and clearly bright.

   There is one invariable thing. You must necessarily experience it. While always tasting your mind, you don’t perceive it since you don’t have the experience. Since you only have conscious experiences, as if you saw things with delusion, the experience of tasting the true self is very different from what is recognized consciously. After experiencing it, you come to understand that it is not different from what you have before, but before the experience, you will never understand it, no matter how I explain it.

   Anyway, you don’t need to try to understand it, thinking, “Will it possibly be this experience?” You can complete the lifework only when you experience it. So, if you are sincerely and deeply involved in the problem of where your true self is among the continuously changing movie screen-like sphere, someday you are going to experience it unexpectedly.

   However, the experience is different from person to person. Some may experience it intensively and others may experience it inappreciably, not knowing whether he has experienced or not. But as time goes by, he can recognize that he has already experienced it. Anyway, one has to confirm his true self. Then, he is said to taste the mind. Actually, if one correctly tastes the mind, he has no thought about such experience. If one who tastes the mind thinks that he has tasted the true-self, it is like while having a meal, he is distracted from the meal. Don’t you think so? When you have a meal, if the meal is very delicious, you are much more likely to just devour the meal without thinking that you are eating the meal. The experience of the mind is like eating a meal. When you correctly experience the true self, you have no thought about what you are doing.

Q: While practicing Seon, I sometimes feel so stifled that there sometimes comes a time when tears come to my eyes. Would you tell me what I should do in that case? 

A: It is likely that you feel that way because you are angry. You may feel desperate, thinking, “Why can’t I make it no matter how hard I try?” You may feel indignant about your lack of competence and feel even desperate since you cannot make it, despite your efforts. You may even think, “Is it impossible for me?” “Why is the practice so difficult?” So, you may shed tears. It could cause a disorder if you are so obsessed with indignance and regret.

   The practice is actually not so difficult. You had better always practice with a light heart. If you feel pressure about the experience, you can’t make it. Even in everyday life, you may know that if you feel burdened with a task, you are likely to fail. You may get exhausted even before starting it. You should just shed the pressing thought that it is once in a lifetime opportunity and with a light heart think that everybody can make it since it is not a difficult task. If you are sincere with a light heart, and if you feel burdenless and confident, you are sure to achieve it before long. That way, you should practice pleasantly. Under pressure, you would feel pitiable, and toilsome. Because you feel the practice laborious, you get depressed and pitiful, so you cannot make it even when others with a light heart can easily make it. You had better practice with a belief that you can make it with pleasure. 

Q: Professor, would you tell us in detail how you have practiced so that we can understand easily? 

(This response is expressed in Master Kim’s Journey to the Self. You can see it in the story.)

Q: It seems to me that Professor Kim must be the master of the mind, but I think that I am being pulled this way or that as a slave of the mind. In this regard, one must be the slave of the mind as long as he doesn’t realize the true self. What do you think about that? 

A: Of course, the slave of the mind he is! He is getting dragged around by words, desires, emotions, notions, and so on. Originally, for the enlightened, the mind is like a horse on which they ride, but for the sentient beings, the mind is like a horse which they are chasing, holding its tail. As they are not riding on its back, they can’t control it. Moreover, the mind tends to be picky and unruly like a wild horse.

   Chinese Seon Masters used a metaphor like “grasping one’s nostrils”. In the famous Seon picture of “Looking for the Ox,” the mind is compared to an ox. An ox can’t move as it wants if it is tightly bound by the nose ring. A little child would handle a cow by a nose ring. It seems like a perfect metaphor. Therefore, Seon practice is like that. We are riding on the ox’s back and drawing in the reins. Then, the ox will go anywhere as the rider controls. The rider and the cow are literally united into one in no time. So, he feels relieved. However, it is rather difficult to say that he is the owner of the cow since the cow is not different from the rider himself. He has no specific view about whether the mind exists or not. He can go anywhere just as he wants since he is already no other than the true self.  

Q: I’d like to ask one more question. It is about the practice method while we live in everyday life. Some would practice hard through chanting or Hwadu, and others would just live a ordinary life, not doing specific practice, and others let their mind drift as it likes. Would you tell me which way is better for Seon practice?

A: Whether one practices through chanting or Hwadu, or does no specific practice without any thoughts, or lets his mind drift as it pleases, these are all the same. What I mean is that it is not practice if there is any intentional thinking in practice.

   As I have told you about the experience of my practice, one who has not completed his practice cannot understand what the practice is. It is useless to practice according to his judgement, thinking that this way works and that way doesn’t. It is not like that. As we have discussed in the first question, a practitioner should be thirsty for the true self. If one is very thirsty for it, someday he will satisfy his thirst in spite of himself, whatever practice he does. A desperate thirst for awakening is everything and, then, his desperation will satisfy his thirst someday, whether he drinks river water or well water. It is not conscious judgement but the desperation that makes him complete his practice. Only if he is desperately thirsty for the true self, will he someday taste it. He misunderstands Seon practice if he practices with his conscious judgement. That is not practice. When one practices with discrimination, he will not make it even if he practices more than 30 or 40 years.

   There is no method in practice. There is no loyal road and specific method. If he feels more comfortable when he practices according to a specific way, it is much like a student that gets rid of uneasy feeling while he just pretends to study, not actually studying. If one feels anxious when he doesn’t do chanting or keyword meditation (Hwadu), he is not practicing actually but he is only relying upon it.

   One should frankly and with a cool head look back on about what he is really hungry for and if he really wants awakening. It works very well if he contemplates that way. Otherwise, it is likely that he seemingly wants awakening even if he is actually hungry for secular desires such as money, recognition, and respect. He may be deceived in spite of himself. How truly and desperately does he want awakening? When he frankly and calmly looks back on whether he feels hungry, if he feels even a small minor hunger, he should depend upon the hunger, not upon his conscious judgement. The more hungry he is, the further he will proceed. The less he is hungry, the more likely he is to linger around the same place.

   Now, it is a time for a meal, so we can satisfy our hunger if we just eat a meal. But many people may talk a while about what they like to eat, actually not eating any food. Some may look into a cookbook, worrying about whether they eat this food or that. Then, they may miss the mealtime and forget the hunger. Then, they look into the book again. It is like repeatedly counting on a specific method when we practice. If we just rely on our hunger itself without affectation and formality, we may eat anything, even humble food, that we happen to find in the kitchen. It is an unconscious behavior and it works only if unconsciously so. Then, it can satisfy our hunger.
Consciousness is like a living organism, very mischievous. It may feel stuffed in delusion while it is just looking at various pictures of delicious food. That is, even it is actually hungry, it doesn’t feel hungry. We should not use and manipulate our consciousness and not calculate the practice means. Letting go our grip of consciousness, we just follow the demand of our inner hunger for awakening.

   While you check consciously how much you cultivate your mind, your hunger cannot be satisfied even if you practice as if you studied in the school for over ten, twenty, or thirty years. It is possible for you to forget your hunger, but even if you forget it, your hunger never dies down.

   Therefore, the attitude of mind, which we discussed earlier, is very important. It is impossible for you to handle your consciousness, even if it may look controlled. But when you are really hungry, you are likely to leave alone your calculations about what you are hungry for and how much you are hungry. If you just leave it alone, that’s enough. You only need to have the belief that someday it will come out. If you feel pressured, consciousness is apt to intervene. Without too much pressure, relaxed, it will come out.

(2) Dialogue 2

(An interview with a person who had inquired about the fundamental problem of man through the publication “Literary Creation.”)

Q: Would you explain to us about the mind that you refer to? 

A: The mind exists only by name. It has nothing but the name and the only way for you to know the mind is to taste it directly. You will never understand it through words.

   First, one never knows it by any means of explanation, but can only know it by experience. All the teachings of the sutras and Seon Masters’ analects are explaining about the mind, but since they are directing at different points, they are only partly correct. Because they are like prescribed medications that depend upon the listener‘s consciousness level. So, the mind cannot be explained by words or grasped conceptually. Therefore, for the one who really wants to grasp the mind, it is important for a practitioner to correct his attitude of mind. Namely, Seon practice needs to correct the attitude of mind to one that doesn’t measure consciously.

   At first, people usually try to know the mind through knowledge or concepts. But, what I teach in the name of the Seon practice is to correct the attitude of mind since they will never know the mind without a sincere attitude to taste the mind! It is much like a child who strongly wants to have a favorite toy so that he cannot sleep well at night. With such sincerity, the mind can be confirmed in oneself. There is nothing to talk about regarding the mind because the mind cannot be defined as this or that.

   Eventually, as for mind cultivation, one cannot understand the mind even if he reads many books about it and listens to a lot of wise advice from a sage. Mind cultivation depends on the sincere attitude of his mind.

Q: Is there not any other method but the attitude to sincerely know the mind?  

A: Of course not. Nothing is required but it.
   Seemingly, people live depending on the values they have, such as money, honor, family, friends, lovers, and so on. Even if they live so, a doubt about their own existence may occur to them someday. They may feel a vague doubt, thinking that the value of life is found, not in the secular life but in the inner side of his existence. So, not putting too much value on secular things such as money, honor, or family affairs, the one who has a usual amount of doubt about his existential value can cultivate successfully. Otherwise, practice leads to only knowledge and, as such, it is just superficial.

Q: In my case, especially after adolescence, I used to ask myself about who I am, but during that period, I can’t think of any conclusion. As time passed by, I was busy with my college and hectic social life, so the circumstance didn’t allow me to think of this existential question. Now, when I achieve something material by secular standards, I feel empty. As the unstable repetition of the same routines of the past continues, I feel anxious and nervous. I seem to have lived believing that there is not such a thing as truth. Then, as you said that everything is certainly no other than the very one, I was half in doubt. Even though I feel rather thirsty for awakening, I am not yet sure about whether it is true or not. 

A: Our secular affairs are the same as you have said. Even if one works very hard with an ill-defined expectation that he would be happier if the task in which he is involved is completed, nothing is going to change actually–even he might partly feel a bit of fleeting happiness after the task is done. Next, he starts to look for another task upon which he can depend, but he will eventually understand that there is not such a thing as the life he wants, so he just lives an uninspired life like the others’ and gives up the hope that it will get better someday, thinking that nothing will change, no matter what task he is involved in.

Q: Even if he has given up, he still feels nervous and anxious.  

A: It is true that his life remains unsatisfactory. He just gives up his desire, not because he attained what he wants, but because nothing can satisfy his desire. The ultimate answer to all of life’s problems cannot be found when we are looking for it outside. Even if one achieves a high social status or earns a fortune, he cannot be 100% satisfied with it. Actually, the ultimate happiness can only be found in our inner self.

Q: I do have a feeling that I can’t find it anywhere other than in my inner self. 

A: Although it can be found in our inner side, we often think it is found in art, philosophy, literature, and so forth. We often mistake them as our inner side. So, when we investigate theories through philosophical inquiry, and reflect various aspects of human life and psychology through art and literature, we mistake it as understanding life.

Q: Then, when I finish writing something, I don’t review it. I hate to review things, thinking that it was never written exactly as I wanted. 

A: Of course not. Even if you do the task, wishing to explore your inner self, you feel vain and empty after you complete the task. Because you know unconsciously it is not what you want, you don’t review it any more.

Q: I think that I don’t have much talent to express myself, so I can’t complete writing as I want. 

A: Even if there is no completion in a theory or product quality in art and literature, we are always thirsty for perfection.

Q: Sure! Always that kind of thirst…  

A: So you could say that we think it might be possible to reach a summit that is considered perfect, so we always try hard but we also think that we can’t reach the summit because we are rather short of ability.

Q: Thinking that someday I am going to really make something …  

A: That’s right, thinking that someday we are going to make it. However, there is no completion because we are endlessly fabricating and making more. It is like the Towel of Babel. Even if we build a great 100-story building, the next 101-story one will be built someday. It is like an endless circular loop.

Q: Is it really so?  

A: Whatever is made, it follows this. Why don’t you think about it? The theory is very simple. For example, one who has made something for 31 years is likely to make more than a man who has made it for less than 30 years. If man should live for 80, 100, or 200 years, the quantity of what he has made would be quite different depending upon his age, let alone the difference of quality. Finally, it will be finished with his death. Meaning he is finished, not because he is incapable of making it, but because he doesn’t have time to make any more. There is no completion; it is impossible. Even if we live a thousand years, it doesn’t make any difference. Fabricating things is endless. Even if we think that we have completed a task, it seems to be imperfect when we look back on it a few years later.

Q: Why do we, human beings, live like that? 

A: It is because we are punting on the first down that we pursue something endlessly,

Q: Then, most of us do the same way…  

A: Not most, but 100%. Namely, when we explain it in the Christian way, it is because of the Fall of Man. From the time when we ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, it has started. According to the Buddhist explanation, that’s the starting point of Sattva, the unenlightened multitude.

Q: Because we are born as human, we have no choice but to live like that?  

A: Sure. That’s the basic feature of mankind. As we are born with our body, we are designed to see outer things. We don’t see our own existence but see things outside, since our physical sensory organs are designed to see the outside. Our consciousness follows the same way as our senses. We are apt to imagine and draw things based upon what we have obtained through our senses. That is the basic mechanism of our consciousness.

Q: Are you saying that we are fabricating things through senses?  

A: Sure, endlessly. It’s the mechanism of our consciousness, isn’t it? The existence of human beings who are born with a body is sustained by depending upon our physical senses, so our consciousness follows the same way. While we judge synthetically things that we see, listen to, smell, feel as we follow the outer world, we organize and refabricate those outer different objects and impose our own imagination upon them. It is what we call our viewpoint of the world. During the process, man’s cultural activity, such as philosophy and art, draws more harmonious, desirable and plausible pictures in man’s mind.

   Then, when we see the reality as it is and the human society as we know it according to the values we have, we feel they are unreasonable even if we don’t know what exactly is unreasonable. So, how do we, when we want to make things satisfactory, make them into a satisfactory state? For example, we think we make ourselves content as we constantly adjust, control, and change unsatisfactory objects, as with America when they invaded Iraq.

   But is what we expect possible? It may be possible for us to change our room as we please. However, it gets more difficult when it come to our family because they have their own will. It follows, therefore, that it is ridiculous to want to change the world.

   Then, since it is impossible for us to change the world, we think that we had better change our thinking. Namely, as it is impossible for us to control those outer objects so that we might be satisfied, no matter how we strive, finally we come to change our thinking. In other words, we get accustomed to the situation because the situation cannot be changed.

   However, when we try to adapt to our environment, we need to sacrifice ourselves. This causes various troubles since things still remain unsatisfactory. As a matter of fact, that is not a solution. The problems of our life cannot be solved by conscious thinking.

   The solution that Buddhism offers is not that kind. Buddhism teaches that we should give up the way we try to solve ourselves internally or externally. We should let go of what we want. However, it doesn’t mean that we should adapt to unreasonable situations. Even though we abandon what we want, we should not abandon the desperate hope that there might be an exit somewhere.

   Even though we can’t handle a situation, we want to solve it. Then we come to experience a heartache, and when the situation gets fully ripe, then an unexpected solution may come of itself. That is the desperation to which I refer. We cannot come up with the solution based on our conscious thinking. The solution comes out of itself in a way we can’t imagine or expect at all. All the problems of life can be solved in a way in which all burdens I have born suddenly disappear and we can’t identify where they had gone.

Q: Is it possible only with the desire that we want desperately such solution?  

A: There is nothing but this, the only solution.

Q: Then, is it possible to realize in our everyday life if we do have the desperate curiosity about what the solution is? 

A: With the desperate curiosity, we are bound to look for solutions in spite of ourselves. If we naturally feel stuck, like we are doing nothing for this existential curiosity, we visit this kind of Seon center, read books, or look for a great Seon master to inquire about his problem.

Q: However you don’t explain it to us specifically? As you said that it cannot be explained by words…  

A: Actually, I can’t explain it. Not at all. Because we already have what we are looking for. It is not what others can give. You could say that it is an experience of your own existence, who else but you has your true self? The reason that we are wandering about externally is because we don’t know that the true self overlaps with our own existence. Nobody can give us the experience of our existence. We have no choice but to experience it for ourselves. As people usually have been running after it in the outside, it is my work to guide people to look for it in the inside now.

Q: For example, not only in the Buddhist scriptures but also in the Bible, is it possible to say that the same teachings are written? 

A: Sure, they are the same as what I have told you. In the end, those scriptures bear the same teachings. However, when we consciously understand those words in the scriptures as we read them, it is like that we are looking at the finger that is pointing to the moon. We can’t figure out with our thinking what the words indicate to us. It would be like a stupid man looking at only the finger when it was trying to point out the moon. There is that kind of mistake. So when we guess only by reading scriptures what Christianity is or what Islam is, it is like not looking at the moon, but looking at the finger which indicates the moon.

Q: We just eagerly want to see the Moon. However, it is really…  

A: You cannot do it overnight, no matter how eagerly you want to see the moon. As great talents are slow in maturing, you had better think that it takes a long period, even your whole life, along with sincerity. Be not quick tempered, but deliberately and sincerely, you ought to have a belief that someday you can make it, thinking, “Is there any reason that I can’t?” Have such belief. You should walk up step by step as if you were climbing a high mountain. You don’t need to check who is beside you. If you look around, you are likely to lose your impetus. If you keep walking forward, you will find the way clear suddenly in front of you. The moment will surely come. Until then, you should go forward.

Q: I heard that a man got enlightened from a line in the scripture that someone else read.  

A: The man had already practiced for a long time. He didn’t make it in one morning. For the longterm pratictioner, so to speak, who has prepared for a long time, it is possible to awaken him with just a simple prick. There is an expression of mother hen pecking while the infant chick cries in the eggshell to come out. The mother hen pecks from the outside to bring it out. An egg cannot be hatched in a short time. It needs a previous proper time and condition.

Q: At first, I misunderstood it, thinking that some made it instantly and others couldn’t although they try hard. 

A: (smiling) There is a reason that they can’t make it. For example, when an egg is put in the refrigerator, can it be hatched? Like this, there is always a reason why they can’t get awakened.

Q: Would you recommend a book or something that is suitable for such impetus?  

A: There are not many books worth reading. You ought not to read any books. Actually there are few books worth reading. What it means is that usually a lot of books are written using consciousness, so those books eventually lead people to discrimination. While we read books, we tend to become closer with the writer who wrote the books.

   As a book written with discrimination makes people exercise delusion, they keep going the wrong way, not toward the true self. Even if people only read the books written by the awakened, not only are the awakened rare, but also the books written by the awakened are rarely written non-dualistically. If people read various dualistic books, it has nothing to do with realizing the true self, but it is just a kind of exercising discrimination.

Q: When we read books written in terms of the true self, is it helpful?  

A: When we read books, if we understand that knowledge has nothing to do with the mind practice, it doesn’t matter. Then, even if we read books, we do not seek for knowledge, do we? If we read books with stuffy desperation, as if we don’t know what it is even if there seem to be something, it would be helpful. Desperate curiosity will help, but knowledge won’t.

   The best example is to wake up from dreaming. When you dream a nightmare, you would like to wake up because it is terrible and unsatisfactory. So, no matter how hard you give a sharp pinch on your leg, or shout in order to wake up, you can’t wake up because everything you do is still inside the dream. Whatever method you employ, you can’t wake up. But, when the stuffy and desperate feeling ripens, you are going to wake up in spite of yourself, not by a specific method, but by the very desperation. Your eyes begin to open suddenly.

Q: However, when we start to practice, the desperate feeling arises of itself, if we believe that there is surely a solution. But if we doubt whether there is such a solution, then our resolution tends to grow weak. If we stand fast in our resolution, we will keep looking for it. 

A: (smiling) 100% firm belief arises only when one confirms it himself. For a few thousand years, not only many sages but also a lot of scriptures have already said so, but if one thinks that neither sages nor scriptures can make him believe it, thinking that he will believe it if somebody else confirms for him that it is real, then there is no chance for him to awaken–because nobody else but him can confirm it.

Q: Then there must be a casual relation…  

A: Sure, he is motivated by himself.

Q: They say that the mind, the Buddha nature, or God exists in everything? He is said to also exist in animals. Does His existence permeate through everything? 

A: Yes, it does, but we don’t confirm his existence through individual objects. When confirmed, there is nothing but what is the Buddha nature. However, before confirmed, we can’t come up with a specific conclusion through scientific inquiry such as observations or experiments.

Q: Therefore, it cannot be solved by looking at the outside, but by looking into myself. Looking inside…  

A: Accurately speaking, looking into myself is not correct. It makes me an object. It has nothing to do with seeing objects.

   For example, briefly speaking, (raising the cup in the front) You can ask yourself, “What is the true self of this cup?” He says that there is Dao, the ultimate principle at this very gesture”. But what you are doing and thinking does not arise due to the cup. You just need to know where it happens and what it is. That’s all.

   One’s own existence is not confirmed through objects. The confirmation of one’s own existence can be proved through the self-awareness that he always exists. Anyway, this cup also exists since I am.

Q: While everything has changed physically, or mentally during my life, what I think has not changed is the vivid and live thing, this very consciousness. Even though I am old, I still feel love no less than when young, which confirms that I am still alive, doesn’t it? What I understand fully is that the feeling that I am alive has not changed, right? I came to such a conclusion. 

A: If you think that although everything has changed, the consciousness that you are alive has not changed, you understand it conceptually. Not just understanding conceptually, you should confirm directly what is living.

Q: Once we confirm it, all problems shall be solved?  

A: Sure. They can be solved at once. Because the problem isn’t originally real.

Q: Then, if I have some difficult problems while I am living, is it useless if I ask for a solution to the problems? 

A: That’s not a fundamental solution, but a symptomatic treatment. While one makes ripples in his mind, he is asking others for a way to calm down the ripples. Then, maybe others can block up a breeze which is blowing from outside, but can’t block up the mental ripples which he makes himself.

   However, he may mistakenly think that he is calming down the ripples while sitting calmly in Seon meditation. That’s not the case. Consciousness never stays still. It moves like water. Once water is given outside impetus, water always moves according to it. Liquidity is the nature of water. While we are living, we can’t stay still and calm if we are given outside impetus. Like flowing water, we can’t live without various casual relations, so we are supposed to be under the influence of them.

   So to speak, sitting in meditation to calm down the mind ripples is a kind of a symptomatic treatment. It is like temporarily putting water into a kettle with a lid on it. Actually, water has a flowing nature and the mind is also like that. We can stay temporarily still in a room, doing nothing, but we can’t live so continually. Unlike water, a delusion will arise even if he stays still. The arising of delusion is man’s nature itself, so it is impossible that we block up the arising.

Q: Then, do the awakened have the arising nature, too?  

A: Sure, they all have. They are also human.

Q: Then, what kind of difference is there between the enlightened and ordinary people? Especially, when they are stuck in an embarrassing or painful situation, rather than in a pleasant situation. 

A: Then, it cannot be explained by words. Anyway both have a delusion, but even if a delusion arises, for the awakened, it is like that it never happens since they are not deluded by it.

Q: Do you mean that they don’t feel pain? Don’t they feel such a thing?  

A: Various phenomena which arise owing to emotional agitation don’t affect me so much. Even if emotional agitation fluctuates, I don’t feel dizzy about it.

Q: Is your mind always in calm state?  

A: Sure.

Q: Always…  

A: Always stable and calm. Even if I speak wildly, it is always calm.

Q: Death is like that? Even before death? Or before other person’s death…  

A: Yes, it is. Always it is calm and unflinching. The state after the experience cannot be explained by words and cannot be imagined. No matter how I explain the state of how I feel after the experience, nobody will understand it unless he experiences it.

Q: As it is said to be terrific if we taste it, we keep eating into it. So would you tell us about how wonderful it is? (Smiling) Because we are stuck deep in the mire… 

A: The burden laid on one’s mind before the experience gets lighter. All the burdens get lighter.

Q: Most of all, I feel weakhearted in front of people because I worry too much about what others think…  

A: That’s right. We are usually irritated by ourselves rather than by things. We are swayed by various human relations. We are so vulnerable to human relationships that the irritation which we feel during our everyday life does not instantly go away even if we get awakened. It disappears slowly but, eventually, we feel relieved. We will become more free from the influence of the human relationship than before. They are not burdensome anymore.

Q: I am missing freedom of mind.  

A: Since we don’t know what the genuine taste of freedom is, we are likely to stick to feeling cool and desirable.

Q: That’s right. I started to write the creative work since I thought it would be a good means to solve my existential curiosity. While I am working on writing something, I can forget my problems. But upon finishing my work, I always have to face the same problems again. 

A: People tell us that we should stick to work if we are worried about something. While working, we are likely to forget the problem. However, it is not solved, but merely forgotten. It is called allopathy. In hospital, the nurse spanks softly the child’s bottom so that the child won’t feel pain during the shot. Since the nurse’s spanking leads the child’s attention to another body part, the child can forget the pain of the shot. Most solutions of the mind in psychology are usually those kinds of allopathy. That’s not a fundamental solution.

Q: (heaving a sigh) Then, there is only one thing, the desperate mind. 

A: So, while one listens to dharma talks with desperation—the stuffy mind–and distresses oneself about the his own existential matter, he is likely to change slowly as time goes by. Then, at one point, it begins to surface as if an egg is hatched into a chicken. Becoming a chicken happens in an instant, a moment, but it needs a long time of previous warm up.

Q: When you were repeating,”That’s it, That is the very thing,” using a metaphor during the dharma talk, I felt something stinging at that moment. Because your dharma talk was totally different from what I have already known, I think that I felt that way, a subtle impetus. Is it a kind of good signal? 

A: Anyway, Seon practice is not what we are seeking on the outside. Even if others may think that we do not practice, we should always keep the problem in mind. While we are getting along with others, even if we look like we don’t practice, this problem should be our major concern. Otherwise, we can’t get along with others under the pretext of practice.

Q: Even if I should pay attention to the matter, I often forget about it during everyday life. Even if I keep the problem in mind for a while, suddenly I come to forget it at one time.

A: Rather than grasping at the problem, let it actually become your existential agony, then, it cannot be forgotten. It is that kind of situation which leads to awakening. Consciously grasping a problem cannot be what we call the practice.

Q: You always say the same things dharma talks. Does it influence people?  

A: Yes, Seon cannot be understood by words, so I give a kind of hint to people. Then, they are changing little by little. It takes only a little time to understand by words, but Seon has nothing to do with understanding consciously. Even though they understand by words, they cannot change themselves according to their understanding.

Q: There is a merit in practicing. When I was ignorant of Seon, I was so afflicted with various matters. But, as I recognized all the phenomena as fantasy even if it looks to be obvious and vivid, I felt rather relieved. There is a lot of difference between before and after I understand that man’s consciousness makes all the phenomena in the universe. 

A: It’s a trick of consciousness that we feel relieved, thinking that way.

Q: Absolutely, it is a kind of conscious manipulation. But, I feel rather relieved.  

A: Right, even if we think so, we can feel rather comfortable. But that’s not enough. Usually most of meditation practices make people feel comfortable on a certain level, but it can’t solve the fundamental problem.

Q: Then, in practicing, we should not expect that we will get some merits if we practice, should we?  

A: We should not expect anything. We just have to be thirsty without any expectation.

Q: At first, when I meet people, I find myself irritated and feel it difficult. I would like to ask some ways to ease these feelings, but I’m so timid that I can’t ask any more even though I know better than to expect something. 

A: Allopathy cannot not be man’s fundamental solution. That kind of symptomatic treatment is usually used in ordinary consulting programs.

Q: It is only with the desperate mind about what the truth is?  

A: You should just feel thirsty for it without any expectation. With any expectation involved, your practice will surely flow into a wrong direction.

Q: Only one thing, what truth is… Is really there nothing but the only one?  

A: (Smiling) If you know what this is, every existential problem can be solved. One’s existence is not complex, but simple.

Q: Then, is it because I have lived a long time in complex environments that I doubt what is a simple one? 

A: (Smiling) That is our basic problem. Lao-tsu’s Tao-te-ching tells us to empty ourselves over and over. Clear out ourselves until nothing remains—until we become the most simple. The reason that I am talking about such a thing is because it is originally a simple one. There is nothing but the very simple one. Therefore, as you practice constantly with interest, you will get deeply into the practice in spite of yourself. You should not do practice with a purpose or an intention. With an intention involved, you will get into where you have intended. In that case, your practice will deviate from the correct path. So, you had better just practice without any expectation, thinking that it is your lifelong task. There is nothing but it.