Master Kim’s Journey to the Self
An Interview with a Seon Practitioner
Q : Would you tell us how you have practiced in a way that we can easily understand?
① Kim : I was studying Seon Buddhism in post-graduate school while preparing a doctoral thesis on Seon.
As Seon cannot be understood only with books, I was concerned about how to write the thesis. However, luckily, I happened to meet Seon Master Park, HongYoung who was a layman, not a monk, and I studied Seon at his satsang. (Indian: Dharma meeting) As far as I remember, I went to his satsang twice a week and he preached “The Essentials of the Mind” compiled by Yuanwu Keqin, “Collection of Epistles” by Seon Master Dahui Zongao, “The Record of Linji,” and “The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch.”
At that time, he was running a student lodging house. He was the landlord and in his seventies. From the first time that I attended his satsang, I never had any doubt about his dharma, even if he was a plain-looking old man. Anyway, I was not in the position that I could tell whether he is somebody or not and I was desperately thirsty for Seon. I had never really practiced Seon. Actually, I had never been to the places such as temples or Seon centers and I had never met monks. Frankly speaking, I had read few books about Seon before I chose to major in Seon in post-graduate school.
Even though I had read many books about the Eastern and Western philosophy while studying philosophy in the university, those books were just well-organized theoretical value systems and didn’t give me the answer that I desperately wanted. So, I chose to study Buddhism in graduate school, hoping that Buddhism could give the answer for which I felt thirsty. As I spent my master’s study learning the doctrines of Early, Hinayana and Mahayana Buddhism, I finally found out that Seon is the live Buddhism that could actually relieve my thirst. Afterwards, I read many texts and collections on Seon. But as those books are just translations of historical facts, my doubt about Seon and thirst for an actual taste of it were growing bigger and bigger.
While in this thirst, I happened to meet my Seon teacher who was actually teaching Seon, not just as a field of theoretical study. As I was in an unquenchable thirst for Seon, I didn’t think too much as to whether he was a real Seon master or not. It was that the thought itself of doubting never even arose. I just didn’t have such a thought.
When I heard his Dharma talk, I was totally at a loss because I couldn’t understand even a word and once in a while I felt weary and sleepy as I didn’t know what he meant. But I listened to his Dharma talk consistently because I didn’t know where else I could go. Even though he was just a plain landlord of a student lodging house, I increasingly felt that I could trust him. Maybe, without even realizing it, I could feel that he had something when I first met him.
Anyway, I wanted to actually taste the flavor of Seon and it was this wonderful opportunity to encounter him so easily right in the very front of the school. It seemed that it was burdensome for me to attend a temple and perform the rites or ceremonies of the temple. However, as he was running a student lodging house in front of the university, it was very convenient for me to attend his satsang without any burden. I never especially asked a question, nor did he offer this or that, such as words of encouragement. I just listened to his Dharma talk silently, sitting in the back at his satsang.
② Anyway, I was sitting at his satsang, hoping that I would study Seon, but I felt indolence after a few months because the satsang was in an unfamiliar atmosphere and the Dharma talk was impossible to understand. However, I had some trust for him in my mind. And since I thought that there was something, even though I didn’t know what it was, I made up my mind that I would stay there and study Seon until I could make a judgment about what Seon and he had for myself. I thought that I would continue to study Seon there until I could grasp as much as possible. Anyway, I had no reason to doubt him. I knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had something that I didn’t know. I only wished to know what he had already realized and continued to attend his satsang since there was nowhere else to go.
One thing that I remember was that those Dharma brothers, whenever we got together at a tea cafe after the satsang, would encourage me to study until the end so that I might enjoy a happy result. That encouragement motivated me a lot. The relationship among the Dharma brothers was warm and affectionate unlike those in society. I felt comfortable and relieved with them.
However, since I didn’t know about Seon, I couldn’t say a word about Seon study. So, I used to listen to the teacher’s exposition without asking a single question. Without asking a question or judging whether it was good or not, I just listened to his exposition. I seemed to have such a disposition that I would stick to a task silently until I got to know it perfectly and I could say something with confidence. I kept on like this in an undemonstrative manner.
A few months after I started to study at his satsang, my junior graduate students would come and have a word with the teacher as he said what he achieved a little bit. Seeing the situation, I was envious at once and I felt that my pride had been hurt, but I felt in my heart that I was sure to achieve something, so I encouraged and praised my junior colleague outwardly while I hoped that someday I could make it.
Meanwhile, it seemed that another year passed. As I didn’t understand what he said, I just sat in his lectures, numb. Sometimes I dozed off. As time went by, I got used to the satsang atmosphere though I could hardly stand more than thirty minutes’ his exposition even after few months of attending the satsang. Due to the permeation of his Dharma talk in my consciousness, I started to feel accustomed and comfortable. So, I came to find attending the satsang pleasant. While I was sitting at the satsang, I felt comfortable and free from earthly anguish and delusion. So, I used to drop in on my Seon teacher even when there was not satsang. Whenever I felt weary, I used to visit him, sometimes several times a week, chatting with the Dharma brothers and making contact with the Seon teacher.
However, I came to a stalemate with the Seon study. Once, I tried to do Hwadu practice. I couldn’t do it even for a day. Honestly, I couldn’t do Hwadu practice even for an hour—not for an hour. I wondered if it would be helpful for me to do it. Even if I was thirsty for the Seon study, doing Hwadu practice did no good for me. Despite this, there was nothing else that I could do to quench my thirst. It seemed to me that I couldn’t get any answer no matter how hard I would practice. Actually, the conclusion that I reached after a few years of struggle was that I couldn’t make it no matter how much effort I made to achieve it. Even if I desperately wanted to get free from the prison of my strongly adhesive consciousness, I could find no place to go but consciousness. At last, I did nothing but let go of everything. I just left it to the thirst. Even if I was thirsty for the way out, I had no methods to use. So I just depended upon my Seon teacher’s satsang. Hoping that someday I could make it, I just attended the satsang, believing that it would be helpful.
③ As time passed by , it seemed that I could grasp something in my hands. However, as it was not getting clear to me, I still felt unconfident. I believed in myself, thinking that I could make it before I die. (smiling) Meanwhile, I didn’t like to study those academic texts and materials any longer, so I just held on to my teacher’s Dharma talk, enjoying the atmosphere of the satsang. It seemed to me that there was a period of several months during which I felt that this work could not be achieved with consciousness. Anyway, I thought that it was not something that I would be able to do for myself. After all I gave up my willingness to attain it on my own. I just attended the satsang eagerly, hoping that someday it would come to me.
That’s because I felt that my conscious effort would lead to where I didn’t intend to go. In this way, I couldn’t fathom which way was better at all. With a little intention on practice, I felt that, from that moment, the fathoming mind would lead to somewhere else. I thought that this was not the practice. Afterwards, I just attended the satsang, not even thinking about the practice. I just attended the satsang, relying on my teacher. I just let go of myself, so to speak, giving up any fathoming. I just relied on my teacher’s exposition.
While attending the satsang, I simply held on to the atmosphere and, when I came back home, I felt stuffy because the suppressed desire lay in my mind as a burden. Listening to the Dharma talk was not the same as understanding. Understanding the Dharma talk was meaningless to me and it was not my understanding of Seon study. I was just imbued with the satsang’s atmosphere and I wanted to get into the Place of Origin in this atmosphere. I didn’t want to understand the meaning of my teacher’s exposition with consciousness. While in school, I was so accustomed to words that I disliked the shackles of the words, and I knew that Seon is not the understanding of the meaning of the words. As my teacher used to say the same and similar words at the every satsang, you would understand that it was not necessary to attend the satsang after a few attendances if you tried to understand the meaning of the exposition.
You could say that I attended the satsang, not to hear the words, but to get into the Place. I didn’t want to understand the words, but I just desperately wanted my heart to become open. I didn’t care about the words.
Even if I am actually delivering a Dharma talk now, the contents of this talk are always the same as before. My teacher’s Dharma talk was not different from day to day, but I felt stuffy because I couldn’t grasp any of it. It seemed to me that I was trying to bore a hole on the mind with the same gimlet; it was effortless because it couldn’t drill a hole. Because the gimlet was always the same as usual, I didn’t care about which gimlet would drill into my mind.
④ One day, while sitting on the floor at the satsang hoping to get my heart wide-open, a few minutes after the satsang started, my teacher was hitting the floor with a finger, saying that Seon is none other than the very one. At that time, something that was clogged up in my chest seemed to fall down as lightening flashed in my eyes. When it grazed my body, It seemed that I was connected with it. Saying, “This is it, Wow, Yes, this is the very one” I thought to myself that it was the very one that he was trying to tell me. Even if all the expositions were recorded in my mind, I couldn’t hear and understand them because they didn’t uncoil at all. But as it breezed against my body, I felt that those Dharma talks started to unravel and I seemed to digest all the Dharma talks as if all the tangled tape unknotted.
As it happened in an instant, I didn’t say a word about it that time. Besides, I came to know what he meant at the satsang. However, even if I understood what he said, I couldn’t think that I felt confident and steadfast in my Dharma without a doubt. Even though there still remained all the problem that were there before and I still felt somewhat stuffy and uncertain. But increasingly I felt fresh and cool after that wonderful experience of awakening.
Afterwards, one day while I read a book alone at home, I encountered a phrase that I still remember. “The whole world is totally the grace of God.” At that moment, a tremor of delight came up all over me as if my body were all aglow. In the meantime, I felt several experiences as if the whole world were full of blessings.
As time went by, I could confirm distinctly in my heart that this was what I had been searching for over so many years. “This is it! This is what I wanted to find!” Then, once I could identify it, it seemed like either an empty space which had no ground or something intense which had all the power in it. Even though there was nothing to grasp, it felt like a calm abyss of no-conflict and no-distinction where everything had melted down. Figuratively speaking, it seemed like a nuclear reactor which was invisible but able to melt every crooked idea down. When I relied upon it, I felt relieved and stable, but when I followed my thinking, I always felt anxious. As you know, when you are wandering through your distinction, you might feel unstable and anxious. However, when I used to depend upon the place such as this fireball, I used to feel warm and cozy, like an infant nestling in his mother’s bosom. I felt free from various desires, emotions, and skewed ideas when relying on it.
However, I couldn’t exactly figure out what it was and I just felt it was staying beside me, which made me feel secure and relieved. At the same time, though, I had no idea that it constituted the whole, and still felt thirsty and unsatisfactory. So, I had no desire but to unite myself into oneness. Several years of yearning for oneness seemed to pass. The feeling was at once strong and vague, alternating periodically. Sometimes I feel confident, much like staying at the unwavering place but, at another times, ambiguous.
⑤ The reason why I thought that I was insufficient in the Dharma was that I had a habit of falling into Samadhi. Samadhi means that when you are left alone and sitting on a chair, you are likely to fall into an abyss of mind. I think it is called Void or Sunyata, and I used to get into this abyss of mind. Deep down there, I had no desire and thinking, so I felt inenarrably comfortable. Even ten minutes of Samadhi made me refreshed and invigorated as if I had slept for many hours. I enjoyed this kind of thing for a while. However, even if you enjoy Samadhi, it cannot be consistent because you cannot live in Samadhi for life. If you fall into Samadhi, then you should get out of Samadhi some time or other. If not so, you cannot be perfectly in the Dharma. Even if you stay here and taste the flavor of Samadhi, you might be intoxicated with Dharma.
Afterwards, I had written columns in the Buddhism newspaper on the collection of Epistles by Dahui Zongao and the record of Linji, thus I started to open a satsang for the people who had visited me after reading the columns in the newspaper. Opening the satsang to lead those people to awakening was also helpful to me. While instructing people, I could complement my deficient aspects, and I could learn from the preparation of the satsang and sometimes I could learn from the person who had awakened in my satsang. Regardless of the age and sex, people who had sincere interest and belief in Dharma started to become awakened one by one and could share the experience of awakening with me. Through the process, I could get more and more accustomed to Dharma.
⑥ In the meantime, I used to attend my teacher’s satsang once a week. One day, sitting at the satsang, suddenly all of my consciousness started to converge to one point. The one point to which my consciousness converged turned into the whole of space as all the water in the bathtub disappears when you take off the plug. Everything which appeared in life was no other than the very void and the whole void was changed to one point. Everything appeared is just This and I couldn’t feel so much as even a minor trace or possibility of it. All of a sudden I could not feel any burden on my mind. I couldn’t tell whether my mind exists or not. All the things which appear in my eyes were so natural and common that I couldn’t think of any other possibilities. Even if I tried to think of any other options, I couldn’t. I felt more comfortable and free than ever before.
While I enjoyed Samadhi, I used to take refuge in Samadhi whenever some problems happened to me in my life. Objects were not a big problem but people were often causing a problem. I mean the matter of emotional problems. Those were the biggest barriers to me. Objects didn’t matter at all and Dharma brothers were also no big deal because they empathized with each other. Dharma brothers and people with whom I didn’t have any relationship were no problem at all, but the most influential were the people with whom I had already been acquainted. I couldn’t feel free from the effect of their relationships. The relationships between parents, brothers, friends, students and so on are so strong and influential that we can’t escape easily from them. In other words, we don’t feel burdens between Dharma brothers, but we are often swayed by the secular relationships. In my case, the relationship sphere was so tough that I used to take a refuge in Samadhi, which made me feel free and relieved. I strived for Samadhi in order to stay away from that sphere.
But since I experienced the convergence to a point, which even disappeared into the space, I have never enjoyed Samadhi and I feel more comfortable even in my daily life—which has always remained normal and usual. I don’t have any idea that I do practice and I stay in Samadhi. There is nothing special in life. Figuratively speaking, when there is a dot in the center of a paper, you are able to make a dot again on the same place with a pencil. At first, you might miss the point numerously, but some day you can mark the point exactly with ease. Then, you can stay there at the dot forever. It is also like when you connect electric cables, the light bulb cannot be lit up until the plus and minus cables are connected properly. It is called coincidence. Even if it seems like a very tiny dot, you can stay there, with unwavering confidence when you coincide with it.
As I pinpointed the point, spheres such as emotions could not sway me. Without escaping to Samadhi, I didn’t care about the spheres, even if they approached me, because they didn’t affect me at all. I felt more free and comfortable and there was nothing to annoy me at all. I just lived as usual. As they say, I drank water when I was thirsty and I ate food when I was hungry. That’s all but there was no Dharma apart from living. I just lived as I wished, but that was not the end.
⑦ As my mind became free and I was busy with my own Seon center, the numbers visiting my teacher’s satsang decreased less and less. So, a couple of years after I opened my Seon center, sometimes I just visited to honor him, not attending his satsang. I had a desire to make my own way without relying upon my teacher, and I knew I couldn’t stay forever under my teacher’s shadow as grown children need to leave their parents to make their own way in life.
Meanwhile, as I opened my Seon center and wrote several pieces of columns in the newspapers, sometimes people who were interested in mind-study visited to have conversations with me. Talking with them gave me an opportunity to look back on myself. You know that Dharma talks make people show their levels of mind-study and cultivate their mind. Various kinds of practitioners visited me. Some were standing on a non-Buddhist way and others on the same way as mine.
As I met them, I could confirm that I was standing on the point which is no-staying, no-swaying, and no-restrain away from the secular world. Meanwhile, I felt that the power of awakening was not strong enough to overwhelm the power of discrimination and duality. I hoped that my mind would be stronger and firmer, wanting to be unwavering as a child who wants to grow fast and be an adult readily. However I didn’t visit those who were already known to be Seon masters to contend for superiority.
Even if I considered doing so once, I decided not to do so because I noticed that a competitive spirit and distinction in my mind arose, and doing so would do harm to my mind-study. I hoped that my mind-study would grow fully along the path to the nature without any disturbance. Sometimes when measuring others’ depth of mind-study, I was not sure about their levels. When I measured those who visited me, I was certain that they were right or wrong, but regarding the detailed aspects of mind-study, I couldn’t tell how much they achieved. That’s because my mind-study was not in complete focus and detail. I was certain that I was on the right track because I was not swayed by all those spheres, but I knew that I needed more strength and ability when measuring others’ level of mind-study.
Although I spoke confidently in accordance with Dharma, I still had a feeling that I lacked something and I was not sure in my mind. It means that I could tell that I was not 100% free because I recognized the feeling and consciousness which arose from the mind and body though I was free from all those spheres. Even if I became much more free than ever before, I felt that the existence of the body and mind got in the way of Dharma. I thought that I was short of my power especially concerning the affairs of my family and relatives. Therefore, I liked to spend a certain time alone every day and I used to stay alone away from my family or relatives even at home because I felt that they were somewhat burdensome to me.
⑧ Those days, the Seon center was located in the outskirt of the city, so when I came home from the Seon center, I used to enjoy walking along the trail by a creek. Walking along the trail was not only for the physical exercise but also for the mind-study. As you know, sometimes being alone is necessary and helpful for the practice. For me, walking alone along the trail was always a pleasing experience which confirmed the Dharma clearly. In other words, walking along the trail revealed the Dharma at every step. Even though there were lots of people and beautiful scenes by the creek, I didn’t care about them. I just walked only with the Dharma.
One day, I don’t remember in which year it was. Now I am talking about all the episodes, but I don’t usually remember all those episodes exactly, because I always stay “Now and Here”. The reason why I am telling this to you is that it will give practitioners faith that they can make it if they do practice sincerely and correctly. That day, I was walking along the creek alone as usual, enjoying the Dharma. Then, when I passed under the bridge of the creek, my mind disappeared completely at once. Without the mind, there was no Dharma. Suddenly the world disappeared, and there was nothing, like space. Still, walking, seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking was not different from a few moments ago, but I couldn’t feel any hindrance at all because all those physical and sensory actions felt like vacant space to me. At that time, I understood that all spheres were exactly in focus and it was non-duality. Without the mind, there was no Dharma. I didn’t feel any disturbance attachment from outer spheres and objects. That evening, when I arrived home, I didn’t feel any attachment to my family. Even with other people, I felt so free much like I was sitting in the middle of the space. There were no people, no I, no mind, no world. I didn’t even think of the mind-study and Dharma.
I felt so fresh and clear. I felt freed from all the shackles of restrictions as the mind disappeared. Before the mind disappeared, the outer spheres and objects that my mind perceived were somewhat annoying, so there were also objects to prevail. There was hindrance and obstruction. But when the mind disappeared, there was no one, no world, no truth, no practice, and no enlightenment. Even tiny dirt couldn’t be a hindrance. At last, I can understand layman Pang’s words, “When there is no Buddha who can attain enlightenment, what enlightenment is there?”
Afterwards, I could digest every word or expression of the Sutras and Seon masters without any hindrance. I was amazed at the phrases which I had not understood previously. If somebody talked about the Dharma, I could judge his level in detail. Moreover, I could fathom, as it were, those high profile great Seon masters who were well-known around the country. I could digest the expression like “the goose king drinks only milk, not water when they are mixed” or the sixth patriarch’s remark that there is originally no object, and the phrase of the Diamond Sutra that there is no Dharma which can be attained, and phrases such as “there is nothing to attain” or “hindrance disappears” in the Heart Sutra. Also, I could digest expressions such as “matter itself is void; void itself is matter” or “The myriad things in the universe has no self-entity” or “The principle of non-duality is no-attachment” or “Emptiness of self is emptiness of things material or conceptual, or “The foolish try to abolish the outer sphere, but the wise get rid of their mind.” These expressions are not special any longer.
One day, when I read an expression in a book, “If the world is not dual, the very affairs in front of the eyes are all authentic.” I empathized with the sentence and felt touched. I also empathized with the expressions in the record of sayings of Mazu Daoyi (709-788) such as “The place where you stand is authentic, and the old master reveals himself at every step. I truly understand the expression in the collection of Epistles by Dahui Zongao(1088~1163) like “Both ignorance and enlightenment are empty dreams. When a false ailment is cured by a false medication, he is still the same as the old man. If there exist a man and the Dharma, this is just a non-Buddhist’s opinion.”
⑨ Since 2005, I had translated 30 volumes of collection of epistles by Dahui Zongao(1088-1163), supported by the foundation of the Korea Academic Promotion. As I had a lot of doubts about Ghan Hwa Seon(Hwadu Seon) which I had examined for a long time, I took the whole translation task of the collection. It was hard and took three years, but it helped me study a lot through the translation work. I could get all the answers for the questions which were controversial in the Buddhist community, especially in Korea. Better understanding Dahui sunim’s Dharma and skillful means was very helpful.
I could understand correctly what Buddha’s enlightenment is, and what the means of Buddhism is. And I could digest the expressions such as “Everything is the One mind; Every Dharma is only Consciousness; there is no sphere but only Consciousness” in the Mind-only school. Also, “the world is like a dream and fantasy” in the Complete Enlightenment Sutra or “Dharma cannot be seen, heard, felt, or known” in the Holy teachings of Vimalakirti. Also, I could understand sentences such as “When you see, hear, feel, and know something, it is just a matter of knowing, hearing, feeling, and knowing, but it has nothing to do with Dharma.” Dahui Sunim’s teachings and the sayings of Sutras and patriarchs’ which Dahui Sunim quoted were the evidence that I attained something. Through the collection of Dahui Sunim, I could refine my enlightenment and insight.
Especially, I truly grasped Dahui Sunim’s Seon through the paragraph, “After he digested the Gongan of alms begging to a pregnant woman’s house while reading the Flower Adornment Sutra, Dahui Sunim said that he could be free when he understood that the prison of no-jailbreak is his own mind.” Therefore I wrote this poem:
My mind deceived me,
And also I deceived my mind,
My mind is my prison,
And also my mind is the door of emancipation.
As no-mind exists, no-world exists.
As no-world exists, no-deception exists.
As no-I exists, no-prison exists.
As no-I exists, no-emancipation exists.
Even if there still happen various affairs,
Not even an affair happens.
As existing is no-existing,
It is neither existing nor no-existing.
As we try to escape from the mind, the mind is none other than a prison. As we try to stay in the mind, the mind is also our prison. I deceive myself and I am deceived by myself. I am the door of prison and I am also the door of emancipation. When the mind disappears suddenly, there is no inside, no outside, no-I, and no-prison so there is no-hindrance. When there is something like an infinitesimal mind, you can’t get away from the mind. When you see, hear, feel, and think if there is no mind, with what object are you disturbed?
Since I understood that there is no mind and no world, I have felt more and more confident, refined, empowered, and keen on the Dharma, so I have no doubt at all. As there is no mind, and no Dharma, it is needless to say that there is no duality, or non-duality, enlightenment or ignorance, and Buddha or a layman. So I am not disturbed with even an infinitesimal dust mote.
Myriad things such as the Dharma, mind, and various spheres are just the shadow of enlightenment because one’s enlightenment is not well-integrated. Enlightenment is like putting up a stick on the ground at noon on a summer day. If the stick leans a little to one side, it is likely to cast a shadow. The shadow is like our mind. However, if the stick stands correctly toward the Sun, there is no shadow, but only the whole brightness. So there is no object to be discriminated. Therefore, correct enlightenment is non-duality. I and the world are not two, and there is no-I, and no-world. Even if I live the same life as before, there is no-I, and no-world. Even though there is no-I, and no-world, those things that I see, hear, feel, and know are so vivid. And even if these are so vivid, there is no-inside or no-outside, and not-this or not-that. Every object one by one is just the mind itself, and there is no boundary between objects and mind. There is no mind and no sphere, so the mind is the sphere and the sphere is mind. Objects, one by one, are the mind and the mind, one by one, is the objects. If there is no-mind and no-object, you are not stuck on the mind and objects. Dahui Sunim’s Seon is like this, all the patriarchs’ Seon is like this, and Buddha’s Dharma is like this.
The layman, Hunsan(Buddhist name of master Park, HongYoung) is the first teacher who lead me to the door of enlightenment, and the Collection of Dai Hai’s sayings is the second teacher who resolved my doubts, testified my enlightenment and made me more refined. It is my parents who gave birth to my body, but it is my teachers who revealed my mind. As the obligation to which I owe to my parents is innumerable, so is the obligation to which I owe to my teachers. I cannot count how to appreciate their gratitude.